An industrialist is not someone that builds a few T1 items.

That's the effect of the superindustrialist. Because they have no hindrances or diseconomies of scale, they can make profit on absolutely razor thin margins by mass-sourcing and mass-producing. When some random scrub tries to build a few cruisers, on the other hand, his even slightest deviation from utterly perfected megaindustrial practices means he is building at a loss.

Again, the only people who are negatively affected by reducing hisec capacity are those who have pushed the limits to absolute absurdity through perfect safety and multi-accounting.

Captain Tardbar has also argued in the past that all expansions since Dominion are good because subs are higher now than then.

People would sign up in droves to shoot people like you, then do crazy things like build T1 goods and sell them on the market for higher than their mineral cost because now there is some sort of profit margin to play with.

Not quite advocating for that but you are close, I would rather see the wardec evasion exploit removed and NPC corps to be something to avoid rather than to live in. Sounds a lot more reasonable, because it was the way highsec was designed to be.

For a guy who seemingly knows a lot about industry, you sure know nothing about market forces.

Jita isn't the entirety of the economy.

A normal trade hub in high sec isn't selling everything at production cost because there aren't 100k people trying to sell the same thing as you.

If it cost you more to build something in high sec, even at NORMAL market value, those items would still be more then profitable.

What would happen then is that jita costs would go up, because it's the large trade hubs that are primarilly where everyting is sold at near production levels, and the volumes in jita will always keep goods at near production levels.


Real simply,

Lets say "something" costs 1 million to build today. Doesn't really matter where you build it, it cost roughly 1 million.
In random system, 10 jumps from a major trade hub, that something sells for 3 million.
In the null sec, I want to sell that item for 3 million.
In Jita that item is sold for 1 million.
It gets purchased in buik because it makes sense to buy something for the same price you can build it.
It ends up in a null market for 10k over 1 million.

If you make that item cost 1.75 million to build in high sec, the guy 10 jumps from jita can still sell it for 3 million and it would be a good profit.

If you make it cost 1 million to build in null, then I'm more likely to get closer to being able to sell it for 2 million instead of 1.

Null sec can't be buffed to do that. CCP would have to make the lines pay me everytime I use them with the way things are set up today.

How do you buff a production line that has no intall or per hour cost? You can't, you can however increase the line costs in high sec.

And that's the situation that needs to happen in order for there to be fair competition.

I'm sorry, you're either full of **** or just out of touch.

Jita wasn't desinged by CCP. Jita was never intended to be what it is today.

The playerbase is entirely responcible for jita. CCP had to remove all the content from the system because of us. They did not design high sec around a jita trade hub.

You making baseless arguements, trying to imply that jita is by design and for purpose. It is not, and you are incredibly wrong.


WTF do I know. I only spent 5 years playing entirely in high sec, and the last year or so in null.
Jita is not benefitting the rest of the game, it only benefits the people that use it to sell large volumes of stuff.

People outside of jita, and away from the major hubs sell **** at normal prices.

People are not poor in EVE for crying out loud. New players do not struggle to make ISK. Missions and mining are absurdly easy, and both pay extremely well, everying in EVE pays extremely well.

It takes NO EFFORT to make a million isk an hour. You would have to be at your computer dead to not be able to do 1m an hour, and I have a feeling even a dead guy could do it.

Missioners and ratters can do this thing called 'reshipping to a barge' if the incentive to mine and manufacture was so much higher incentivized, Economics Master.

No, I'm saying that production costs are to low in high sec.

Why is it ok for you assholes to tell me that I shouldn't be allowe to dictate how you play. All the while you guys trivialize my entire playstyle.

These responses are exactly what makes me want to just tell people to go **** themselves. It's hypocritical bullshit. Youy guys get invonvenienced once in a blue moon and it's to the forums to demand CCP do something.

Bumping!

The **** if it's ok for me to point out a legitimate issue that actually impacts an entire playstyle.

How the hell would you guys like it if everytime I shot a rat in null, isk was removed from your wallet.

You cant understand how that annology even works because you don't participate in this playstyle. You're not a ******* null industrialist, you have no frigging clue.

You understand that people will stop farming missions and start mining if it's more profitable to do that, right?

How will increased prices remove mission runners from the game? Highsec mission runners have practically zero cost, the only thing they need to buy is T1 ammo (and their ships, which they already have) which will be cheap regardless because it is so easy to manufacture. Maybe have to buy a few PVP ships, dig into their wallet and buy another T1 battleship to replace their dumb loss because they weren't paying attention, play vigilantly and have to pay some taxes (gasp!) after the changes I have suggested.

If anything mission running will become more valuable because the amount of people switching to mining would make LP more profitable.

Yeah and then I swatted you down again.

People ratted in their supers all the time. But they didn't quit the game once the super nerf hit, which come to think of it was far worse then what has been proposed in this thread. *swat*

I'm not generalizing all high seccers I'm refering only to you guys that respond in threads like these and tell me that everything is fine; when you've never built a ******* thing in null sec.

One of you even had the nerve to make a comment about "oh sorry but all those skillpoints and time you spent are now useless." That's what is happening to me!!!!!

A single ******* market in the game is practically making all my SP and time spent getting them pointless.
If I wanted to sell **** at jita prices I would be doing it in jita, not 29 jumps from jita!

You guys know goddamned well that if you were forced to sell **** at jita prices in markets outside jita you'd be right here with me demanding something be done.

And do not tell me that you already do, I know that's a ******* lie, I've been doing high sec industry for like 7 years now. I am not new at this. I do not sell a single thing in a market in high sec at jita prices, I get better prices then I get in null because in null I'm forced to sell **** at jita prices.

The only reason I continue to build in null is because I like it here, and I have almost 20m skill points in nothing but industry and related skills. I do not have skills in combat or exploratioin, I can not just jump into another area of EVE with this guy without spending a couple of months skilling up to do something I don't want to do.



How the hell would you know if there was a problem, when you've never built anything in null sec.
Coinsidentally, pretty much everyone that has agrees with me. My god, I wonder why that would be.
No one is on the forums saying they're a null sec industrialist and everything is fine, only you guys in high sec that have never done industry outside of high sec.

Please, tell me some more about **** you have no experience with.

Tell me how you make a production line with no costs better?

Once you can do that, you can tell me that there is no need to nerf high sec industry.

If you actually knew what it was like to build in null, you'd understand why buffing null sec isn't possible, and realize that something has to change in high sec.


You can't make perfect better, and with no waste on researched BPO's and zero cost production lines, I'm building as perfectly as you possibly can.

Yet, you guys never seem to pick up on that little bit of information, not ever. Thread after thead after thread I write this, and you guys keep ignoring it.

The buffs we need aren't to make industry better, it's to make it viable for more then just a few people. And again, I say this over and over, but you guys keep ignoring it.

Keep proving my point guy. You're doing a good job of showing you really know what you're talking about.

The problem is that it can't be done without nerfing highsec at the same time unless you buff null into uberville. Without built-in duping and infinite ISK and material fauceting, null cannot possibly become equal to high through buffs alone GÇö the mechanics simply forbid it.

never seen a thread related to 'local', 'blues' or 'moongoo' before
heh

1. Because CCP has said that they want Nullsec industry to be competitive with HS.
2. Because literally nothing can compete with HS industry due to game mechanics. (Nothing being able to compete with something is pretty much the definition of something being broken).
3. Because of the principle in EVE's game design that increased risks should bring increased rewards, and Nullsec industry currently turns that on its head.
4. Did I mention that CCP has said that they want Nullsec industry to be competitive with HS?

Because some people believe that balanced gameplay will GÇ£obliterate the economyGÇ¥ and because they are desperately trying to keep it from happening because it will have to entail a few, much-needed, highsec nerfs.

That's not a problem. The biggest trade hubs will always be in hisec. Nobody has a problem with that.

Aside from supers, which are produced from Trit imported from HS, what finished good does Nullsec have a monopoly on?

Ohhhhhh.... I get it. You have no idea what in the world we're actually talking about in this thread.

Quite the opposite. Putting a cap on how large you can expand your manufacturing operation in highsec incentives the non-casual industrialist, the wholesaler, the guy who crushes the newbie indy with cumulative wealth and razor thin margins, to move out where manufacturing resources are more plentiful, which is where ship consumption is more plentiful. This frees up highsec manufacturing, and more importantly the highsec market, for the casual gamer.

You're assuming that prices stay constant in the face of increasing manufacturing costs. Do I have to explain why that's a bad assumption?

it would be cool if instead of getting handouts because you had all of the blueprints (which entrenches older, richer players) you got a handout because you had an infrastructure put in place by other players to defend you.

Yet everytime I build something, and I check the makert info for that item, the only thing I see are competitors trying to dig into my wallet. As an industrialist it is of great benefit to me to be able to IDENTIFY who my enemy is where they're operating, and then have the ability to effectively hinder their ability to outperform me.

When it's a bunch of NPC corp members building and mining I have no clear indication of who exactly my enemy is, or where they're operating to take steps to minimize the impact they have on me.

[quote=Yonis Kador]HS is, in nearly all respects, a better place to make ISK than nullsec. Is it any wonder that people are going to choose HS for their ISK making when there's no advantage to making it in Null?

No.
To say it without putting words in my mouth, I can make a fair estimate based on the numbers we have and it does not yield the result that the Gǣhighsec ++ber allesGǥ militia wishes it wereGǪ

GǪwhich is far better than wilfully mislabelling numbers as something they explicitly are not GÇö a tactic said militia usually favours.

Before you ever have an item you can trade it must be built.

If the bulk of an item is built by a group of individuals that can not be wardecced, because they don't play in player run corps, you can't identify them.

If the bulk of T2 production was done in player run corporation, through necessity, you would be able to identify who is building what, and where, then take action against them.

Players need to be in player run corps if they're going to have such a large impact on other players, and industrialist by there very nature are impacting every person in EVE; more so other industrrialists.

[quote=Natsett Amuinn]Before you ever have an item you can trade it must be built.

If the bulk of an item is built by a group of individuals that can not be wardecced, because they don't play in player run corps, you can't identify them.

If the bulk of T2 production was done in player run corporation, through necessity, you would be able to identify who is building what, and where, then take action against them.

Players need to be in player run corps if they're going to have such a large impact on other players, and industrialist by there very nature are impacting every person in EVE; more so other industrrialists.

Industry is not controlled by a "small group of individuals".

Having an industrial advantage in null does not benefit the corp holders, it benefits the industrialists.

This depiction of resource control is wrong.

You're using an invalid arguement.

Null doesn't work that way. EVERYONE being able to come to null and mine has no bearing on balance.

And PoS's do not serve the same role in null as they do in high sec.



You should join a null corp, then go to null and do industry for a few months.

Good thing nobody suggested that. Perhaps while we're taking econ and sociology, you can take a basic reading course?

Terrible post, but par for the course for you.

You have a valid point about the lack of completely unified perspectives, but I challenge you to find a quote where someone argues that trade hubs should no longer be in hisec.

I was going to give a number of reasons why the game as a whole would benefit from more industry being performed in null, but after reading your statement above I realised it would be a waste of time as, apparently, it's all about you

The protection factor is the other side of the coin, generally more industry will require more protection, which, it is hoped, will cause more conflict/PVP that may break the blue stalemate in null today.

I find this thread entertaining though. I will continue to post. Never stop posting.

So tell me your ideas so that I might convert to them if I believe they are better than the ones I currently have.